Exclusive Interview with Teesta Setalvad

1.   What made you plunge into social action?

From the time I was in standard VII, a very long time ago now, 1974, the Watergate scandal, most especially the roles played by Carl Bernstein and Rob Woodward in exposing a powerful regime, had captured my imagination. Journalism was my dream chosen field though law was in my blood, being born into a family with contributions of eight generations in law and also being argumentative in nature! So once I completed my graduation and enrolled in law college I began apprenticing as a journalist and quickly went into the field of socially relevant and investigative journalism. Drought related starvation deaths, shrinking water tables, the discriminatory cash crop biased agricultural policies, role and representation of women in the media, labour journalism were my chosen areas.

Then from the mid-eighties a frightening scenario began to unfold before us. Rank majoritarian communal politics of hate and violence with the RSS-VHP launched demand for a Ram Mandir at Ayodhya whoch was in fact the shrill cry for demolishing a 400 year old Mosque and a brazen and blatant attack on Muslim minorities followed by attacks on Christians. These anti-Constitutional and criminal acts went hand in hand with a parallel mobilization of the male clergy among Muslims, on the Shah Bano verdict, demanding that the community be kept out of the application of sections of the criminal law relating to maintenance and divorce. These patallel developments were to us reminiscent of pre-Partition times, and several of us got together and formed a group, Journalists Against Communalism. Sainath, Sudheendra Kulkarni, Sajjid Rashid, Nikhil Wagle, Javed Anand and myself were key to this group.

Before we knew it, communal violence had spread and the shameful act of December 6, 1992 had taken place, in full public view as a helpless people watched. India’s future was in jeopardy as a united, secular, democratic republic. Journalists ( who are bid name political commentators and editors today) joined LK Advani, Murli Manohar Joshi and Uma Bharati in shouting with the criminal mobs, “Ek Dhakka Aur Do, Babri Masjid Tod Do.” Bombay burned with the hatred that was unleashed with this sectarian and frightening mob mobilization. The rule of law was made a mockery of.

What followed was the single largest consolidation of the Hindu majoritarian vote bank, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) riding to power capturing a heady high of 182 seats, banking of this hatred and violence. Christians were brutally attacked in Gujarat (especially) and all over India between 1998-2002 (over 500 attacks on Nuns and Priests, many brutal) and no prosecutions of the targeted violence. The most shameful was the burning alive of Graham Steins and his two young sons in the January of 1999 days before we celebrate Republic Day. Sixteen churches in the Dangs were attacked a month before, in and around the Christmas of 1998.

To sum it up, the battle for the soul of India, inclusive, egalitarian, non-violent and peaceful is what drew me in or threw me into social action.

2. What is your vision as the citizen of this country, for India?

A vibrant country needs an active, assertive citizenry. Believing in its convictions of inclusive governance, willing to speak up against the politics of discrimination, hatred and violence.

3. Amidst the rising fundamentalism and communalism, do you still think that India has a better future? How can an ordinary citizen respond to such a situation?

We cannot give up. India belongs to us, we, each one of us are the soul of this country that has had for centuries welcomes different faiths, encouraged debates and dialogues, disagreed often –but not killed in the name of faith until the modern day cancerous virus of communalism was fostered by the British and fed by organisations like the RSS and Muslim League deliberately fell prey (pre-Partition).

Before this, Ashoka, Akbar, Shivaji, Tipu Sultan we have models and examples of practices pluralism on this soil for centuries before the birth of the fascist RSS that has modeled itself on the ideologies of Mussolini and Hitler.

4. How can a religious leader (in any religion) contribute towards nation building?

Recently at a commemorative meeting in remembrance for Dr Asghar Ali Engineer who was a mentor for us all, friend and priest Rudy Heredia put it beautifully, “Asghar was a religious man because he was an inter-religious man.” I could not put it better. Today’s India, todays world is many splendoured, rich in its diversity, the diversity being not just of faith, language and region but thought and belief.

A deeply committed religious leader should constantly at all times reflect this diversity, express faith in it. My bitter complaint is that when violence breaks, it is persons like us who are out there in zones of bitter conflict. There was a time when this country’s million zillion mini-Gandhis would be out there, demanding an estoppal to the violence. Where are these voices now? Why are religious persons coy or silent when blood is shed in the name of faith?

5. The latest verdict of the SC, ‘A person behind bars cannot contest in any election and the one who is convicted of a crime even in a lower court will not be allowed to continue in his/her office as a legislator’- will this really bring about a substantial change in nation’s public life?

Marginally. Electoral democracy that sometimes gets reduced itself to mobocracy, in India is still grappling with the values of Constitutionalism. Hate speech and writing though crimes under Indian law are rarely prosecuted, that too in time to make sections 153a and 153b of the Indian Penal Code and (corresponding) Sections 123a and 123b of the Representation of People’s Act meaningful. When the law prohibits it, how can politicians dare say they are ‘Hindu Nationalists?’ Are they not appealing to fissiparous, divisive tendencies that at the root hit at our foundations as a secular democratic republic ?

6. Do you think, the Jan Lokpal of Anna, is an effective answer in eradicating Corruption from the country?

Good governance with greater accountability and transparency with public funds is healthy and necessary in any mature democracy but the methods for achieving this need debate and discussion in Parliament. No group can or should say that our remedy or Draft is the best and no discussions will be entertained…..the Right to Information Act itself went through over 150 amendments after being tabled in Parliament and before it became a law.

7. Do minorities have any role in tackling fundamentalism in India? How?

As citizens of this country, undoubtedly. Supporting secula. Democratic formations across all citizens, playing a pro-active role to ensure that the precious diversity of this beautiful land is preserved where Christ and Mohammed can be remembered and worshipped in Oriya, Marathi, Gujarati, Gond or Kunbi dialects; where the vastness of the vision of the Hindu faith is not threatened or determined by hatred and othering and where Jayabala or Gargi or Janaki are remembered as Women of Strength who make Indian women what they are; where we remember with humility our cruelties of caste and seek to admit and rectify them…

Minorities (of all kinds) should actively participate in this discourse so as to enrich and liven it.

8. Do you foresee any change in our educational system, in creating a better India?

Independent India’s fundamental failure has been achieving our goal of ‘Education as Social Transformation.’ This we could have done if we had provided good primary education to all our children. Even today the state is withdrawing from education, a small (that seems large) section is getting expensive private education. What we should be doing is ensuring a common educational standard in state schools compelling the middle class to attend – a common school.

Content of education also needs to be addressed. I am concerned that we do not give respect to Work and force children away from working with their hands by our single focus in education. Also in our Social Studies and history teaching we need to analyse text books, especially the hate driven narrow sections inserted by the politics of majoritarianism and ensure that rational and inclusive history is taught.

What do we teach the young about the first act of terror in Independent India—the killing of Gandhi on 30.1.1948? Who were his killers? Why were they threatened by a Man of Peace ?

Why the reluctance to teach the history of the Khudai Khitmatgars? Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan…

Christianity and Islam travelled to our shores through traders from West Asia who landed in Kerala not through violence. Yet why do we not share with the young how faiths enriched South Asia?

9. What do you think is the role of women in our society, living in times, when their dignity and safety are under threat?

Women, as nurturers, care-givers have always been the backbone of societies often playing dual or multiple roles : within the home and family, and stepping outside with greater responsibilities. This experience brings great maturity and complexity to decision making processes and contributes nuances and richness to discussions and deliberations.

A society reflects itself when it is able to be comfortable, proud of the role of its girls, its women. We still have a long way to go.

10. How can media be more responsible, impartial in its functioning in India today?

Space for the representation of varied voices, especially the voices of the opprerssed, those who do not represent the same class intrest and comfort zone of the television anchors who have made themselves the guardians of morality and prioritization of concerns is shrinking.

Two examples. About six months back the CPI-M had through CITU organized a massive three day rally and protest of over 30,000 Anganwadi and Balwadi workers at Jantar Mantar in Delhi. The numbers were larger, by several multiples of what the so-called anti-corruption movement attracted. Yet there were no television cameras and certainly no Noisy News Hour debates on the kind of shameful and pathetic renumeration we pay these women, who perform such a crucial vital task. They are not treated as workers, paid a pittance, often asked to perform menial tasks at the homes of headmasters and headmistresses. The media has simply stopped introspecting on its abdication and failure.

The other example is comparing the media campaign around the brutal murder of Jessica Lal – candlelight vigils, weeks of television newshour time etc to the killing of a Dalit family at Khairlanjee, Maharashtra (2006). Brute gender violence against Priyanka and Surekha (daughter and mother) was part of the orchestrated scenario before they were paraded before the village, without clothing, and killed. Television ignored this brutality just as it has chosen to black out the recent rape I n Manipal where it so happens that a Bajrang Dal activist is an accused.

Why does this happen? Are the Goswamis, Sardesais and Dutts of Indian television not comfortable about showcasing the brutality of a caste driven killing of women, or is it that the Priyankas and Surekhas simply do not matter to them or their conscience?

These are questions the Indian media would do well to answer.

11. Do you visualize Mr Narendra Modi as the Next PM of India?

Repugnant as the very idea is to the very idea of Ambedkar’s Constitution and Gandhi’s India, the threat must not be underestimated. It must be dealt with and countered at various levels, seriously.

…such a development …. will cause untold damage to the very fundamentals of this country and more especially to the values that hundreds of thousands of men and women struggled for, for over a 90-100 years to throw off foreign yoke.

12. What could be some ways of promoting the awareness of human rights, among the least, the last and the lost of the society?

Constant struggles for justice, better living and peace among those and for those who’s rights are denied every day. Mobilisation of those among all sections who believe that human dignity and life are the basics of a civilized society and a mature democracy.

The battle for human rights and dignity needs to be fostered within family and society first, within institutions of education and governance, and of course fought for and demanded through our Courts of Justice.

The media, that is giving less and less space to the discourse for rights needs to be engaged with, assesertively and creatively to ensure space is created for the furtherance of human rights.

13. Given the fact that so many witnesses turning hostile in the cases related to Godhra pogrom, do you really think it is worthwhile continuing in the type of work that you do?

There is an erroneous presumption in the question. Barely a handful of witnesses have turned hostile, as many as over four hundred Survivors and Witnesses have given brave testimonies despite being under threat, living in the localities where powerful accused enjoy patronage from the state government, supported the case of the prosecution. This was true even in the Best Bakery re-triial where Bakery workers bravely deposed and ensured that nine persons were convicted (2006). Only Zahira Shaikh and family turned hostile and the role of Amit Shah at the Silver Oak Guest House in actively turning the witness hostile has been recorded in evidence. Collectively Witnesses and Survivors backed by our organization, Citizens for Justice and Peace have ensured the conviction to life imprisonment, 127 powerful accused. This is a huge collective success. On principle we did not demand death penalty.

14. How do you explain Mr. Modi’s grand success in Gujarat despite his alleged role in Godhra pogrom? Is Gujarat electorate so naïve and uncritical of Modi’s political rhetoric?

In the first past the post system of elections in India, Modi’s third time win (with reduced seats) is bound to be seen as a huge success despite other states having chief minister’s with a similar record. (Assam, Delhi Madhya Pradesh and Chhatisgarh). Besides, even you are overtaken by the publicity. As a BJP high level worker recently told me, Gujarat gave many more seats to the BJP under Keshubhai Patel (Assembly and Parliament). But Modi’s rule is not just about autocratic discriminatory misgovernance it is a clever PR exercise. Even in December 2012 as many as 1.2. crore voters voted against Modi.

15. How do you explain the fact that many Muslims in Gujarat support Modi? Is it only out of fear, as it is commonly claimed, or are there other factors involved?

Some have supported, not many. Attractive faces like Asifa Khan from Bharuch lend voice to a compromised Sareshwala who has benefitted with land at Gandhinagar for a BMW showroom!! Electorally the figures need to be studied carefully : close to ten-fifteen percent of the Muslim electorate may have supported the BJP but not a single Muslim was given as assembly seat.

The fear of reprisal and vindictiveness is live in Gujarat given how the state home department headed by Modi has dealt with honest police officers and administrators who dare question or oppose.

16. How come congress party is laid to almost a permanent rest in Gujarat despite the presence of some stalwarts in that party?

Again such statements need to be scrutinized carefully. Though two leaders suffered electoral setbacks, what of the fact that eight sitting ministers of the Gujarat government were trounced at the elctions? What of the fact that a genuine analysis of the final tally would reveal a rural-urban divide in Gujarat with rural Gujarat voting Congress?

Having said all that, what is unfortunately true is that between three election losses, especially after three defeats, the fire and fury of the state level Congress becomes silent. This is inexplicable. They simply stop playing the part of the opposition. Why? There are serious land agitations going on today, serious water issues etc ? Why the silence?

Since 1995 (almost uninterruptedly) BJP has ruled Gujarat, even before Modi. This has led to perpetuated discriminatory governance a pattern that is embedded within organisations of society and state. To unravel this, combat this face this is secular, democratic India’s greatest challenge. And Gujarat’s too.

17. Do you train some ‘second generation’ activists eventually to take over the good work done by people like you OR would such work just come to an end after some years?

Genuine necessary work can never end. And a second crop will always come, is there working….

18. Do you think religion as such has a positive role to play in nation building or is it a hindrance?

The history of religion and faith is the history of battles for social emancipation and liberation as well. Sometimes these take inspiration from the religious sometimes not. The important thing is that work for social justice, equality and emancipation must continue

19. What keeps you going as vibrant activist amidst opposition and threats?

The unshakable belief that the vast majority of Indians, who breathe in each others live traditions of syncretic faith, Buddhist, agmostic, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Muslim are on our side. They do not believe in a Hindu India but an inclusive India, the India of the Phules, Ambedkar, Azad (Maulana), Anthony (Frank) and Gandhi.

20. What is your message to the readers on the occasion of celebration of independence of India?

Write clearly, rationally and often. Articulate a compassionate, rational view based on facts and dialectic. Grapple with abhorrent ideas of hatred, division, casteism and communalism through the power of positive thought and action. Above all, try and get your articles published in the mainstream as well.